I do know some folks like to have double bass turned on, ie subwoofers and mains both handling bass at the same time. If that is the intention, then the option is to turn it on here, super sub fronts
Earlier I was wondering if it was a firmware thing…
With my set up, I don’t have such issues, whether or not centre speakers are added… u can see profile on HT60(with centre speakers), profile with “phantom centre” (no centre speakers) they all have the same levels. Profile with music, same all having the exact same 9.5db calibration levels with 65db system wide target levels…
So the addition of the centre speakers has no relation to how the system sets the target level or calibration levels
The only thing different with Daniel’s and mine is that I have all speakers crossed at 100hz… I don’t have any variations some crossed at 20hz, some crossed at 80hz , some crossed at 140hz…
Hi Sammy, here is one article I came across today on the internet
I think this fella here explained it much better… much easier to understand…
I think the key difference is the “level of expectations” one has for their bass… thinking they have a big badass 2kw amp subwoofer… then they go on and boost the levels on the subs… without realising they are actually clipping the signal in the digital domain…only to realise later the subs don’t last and it needs to be repaired…
Thanks. Well explained excellent video. I do tweak the sub levels on some movies, but most of the time for music, I just dial the gain down on the sub itself.
One other variable is the distance of the sub from the listening position - the closer, the louder. My big sub is just behind my chair so it’s about a foot from my head. Hence Audyssey sets the level quite low and the sub never gets remotely close to clipping. My other two smaller 10 inch SVS subs in the living room have clipped on some content when I played around with infrasonic test tones. It’s a horrible sound. Perhaps I should filter them below 18 Hz.
A lot of these modern subs also have sophisticated DSP, which will compress transients such that it’s impossible for the sub to clip. However, compression is observable in REW as they apply DSP. It can be difficult to notice compression with good DSP as opposed to clipping.
Actually if the MLP is located at centre of the room, or 2/3 from back wall and your subwoofers are nearfield, they will tend to sound softer because they are away from the boundaries of the room.
A subwoofer placed at corners of the room, ie trihedral boundaries, will yield the maximum SPLs.
This terminology is called “room gain” and is also part of the feature available on the anthem for tweakers.
If you are using the denon, use the profile option, they have a new profile option where u can save 2 profiles, ie one for music and one for HT. Leave your subwoofer amplifier dial to its 12 o’clock or 2 o’clock position and change the gain settings at the avr instead for lesser bass or more bass. That way you would not need to fiddle with the subwoofer gain anymore. Just toggle between two profiles in your avr
Definitely agree about the room gain of the subs in the corners vs other positions e.g. the center and was doing sub crawls 20 years ago. However, when the sub is a few inches from your ears, I guarantee you, its LOUDER than the corners Try it… although having an 18 inch Seaton blasting 120dB a few inches away might be dangerous for your hearing
Anyway, I can’t reposition my sub as its too big to go anywhere else and weighs 76kg.
I’m using both Denon profiles already for different Audyssey calibrations. One with the house curve and one without. I do use the one without house curve occasionally for music, but most of the time I run music on Pure Direct+sub so fiddling the sub gain is needed. Might consider one for HT and one for music eventually if I use Audyssey more for music. Audyssey does help for some music, eg Rock, but does remove a little clarity say for a capella vocals. One benefit of sitting next to the sub is that I can just reach the gain knob from my chair
Are you using the subwoofers for higher frequencies, if it is then yes. It will sound louder and you can localise the subwoofer location. most of the folks do it for sub frequencies <80hz where u can’t localise the subs, unless u r using a single subwoofer next to you, then u can localise the sound at higher frequencies easily.
Then u might want to work and looking at one where the system is not able to localise the subwoofers… this is why it’s important to check out others set up… see if u can localise them and it 120db of SPLs at 20hz is loud… I assure u it’s not damaging to the ears… only your sofa
When we push the subs to hit 120db levels, we are not pushing it for frequencies at 100hz 120db, we are pushing it for 120db at 10hz… 10hz is not something you can hear, but feel…
I think my low pass filter is set at 80Hz on the Denon. If you are co located with the subwoofer ie behind me and a few inches away, by definition, you can’t feel any directionality to the bass. It’s like I’m sitting on the sub Each doubling of distance increases SPL by 6dB, so if your sub measures say 100dB at 20Hz at the standard 2m anechoic measuring distance for subs, at 1m it will be 106dB and at 50cm it would be 112dB and a few inches away, it could be 118dB+. Room modes boost certain low sub frequencies, and correct me if I’m wrong, but room modes probably won’t make a boost a sub’s loudness by 300%+
To get 120dB at 10Hz, you need pretty huge and expensive subs. Perhaps a bass shaker would be more economical for those few passages of Organ music or helicopter blades and one would have happier neighbors.
If only it worked that way, I would be one happy man no needing 4x18” to pressurise the room….
It doesn’t work that way for low frequency, you are in a small room, and it doesn’t mean that placing it closer to you every 1m will yield +6db of gain. That is in the high frequencies… lol the sound power for low frequencies is omnidirectional…
You should really drop by and pay me a visit, I will let you experience what is 8hz like @120db
I will pull out the RTA for u, and we see if 8hz @120db is loud… I assure it’s not… it’s a type of feeling… not something you can hear with your ears, but feel with your ears…
At no point in time 10-20hz frequencies at 120db will annoy your neighbours…
The offending frequencies that rattles and shakes the walls and your neighbours lies somewhere in the region between 25-40hz…. Especially 30hz the most offending… These sort of frequencies when played at 130db peak levels, might invite the police knocking on your door . A lot of times, these are peak levels in the special frequency effect channel… it goes like bang… a few seconds and u have 120db spikes of peak energy and it dies down (absorbed by acoustics or penetrated walls)
Ya indeed… u will see all types of requirements… from various people…some like it soft, some louder… this one here is purely down to preference… loudness preference… crazy man
IMHO, this is crossing the “comfort zone” of most average HT fans. This is “MOST DEFINITELY” a blind pursuit of “own-self” pleasure and ignoring the rest. Literally throwing out the concept of what constitutes a well-balanced home theater experience enjoyed by everyone. The emphasis here is “everyone”. If this chap is trying to push the limit of the capability of his JTR Captivator sub for the sake of science…then that’s fine but if it it is for day-to-day normal listening, I wish him the best of health.
Thanks. I will definitely visit you after I get back in mid-July.
You were talking about 10Hz at 120dB, but actually I’m not looking to get more SPL. My SVS already rattles the whole room (which is quite large) at 30-40% gain. If you say that the nearfield sub is softer at the listening position compared to corners, then perhaps I have so much power that corner placement isn’t necessary. I currently have the sub tuned at 20Hz by stuffing a port and setting it on the amp, but I can lower the tuning to 16Hz by stuffing two ports at the expense of output. Haven’t tried that. REW has a CEA 2010 Burst Generator to test output (meant for 2-3m anechoic testing) which might be useful to test maximum SPL between the modes.
I haven’t done this recently, but in my old condo, I distinctly remember running an 18Hz test tone on this sub that didn’t sound loud to me (its infrasonic anyway), but caused an open kitchen window far away to start vibrating violently. So, while you may not hear infrasonic test tones, your neighbors may be feeling them. At least with no real sound, they can’t trace it back to your 120dB 10Hz test tones
Lastly, if you haven’t tried near field sub placement, it’s the rage these days, though controversial. Perhaps you can try putting your four Seaton 18 inch subs directly behind your couch. It may sound better than in the corners. Near field sub placement goes a long way to eliminating annoying room effects. Here is Paul McGowan from PS Audio talking about it
Yes I have Sammy. I’ve been there, seen it and done it. I have tried every single possible location and I know the pros and cons of such placement. I have done stacked, co locate, split 4, line arrays, nearfield, very nearfield, whatever u name it , I have not only placed it multiple ways, I still have the measurements on my file… and I have shared this info many years back on xtremeplace forum too
Personally, I don’t subscribe to nearfield placement for multiple reasons after testing this approach…
they don’t give you the best timing response (decay)
they don’t give you maximum room gain, by that u lose out on headroom. Free SPLs down lower frequencies
they don’t feel natural because of the timing of the arrival of the first wave of energy. (I like to use mrt train for this. From a distance, u can feel the train approaching… when u r nearfield, the mrt train feels like it’s appearing out of nowhere)
nearfield will give u a much linear response with midbass, but when two subs are used, they don’t help each other, but they fight for certain frequencies . What we want, is like this below with multiple subs placement. It’s a terminology I like to use. I help you, u help me. When I integrate the system, I strive for this below. I don’t work by looking at the best frequency response at a given location. I work at looking at how one sub helps the other, and they are not fighting each other but helping each other at every single frequency.
I do agree some , in fact many like nearfield or very nearfield sub placement. They probably can’t place it at a corner due to placement limitations etc. or they probably love the tactility nearfield provides. Nothing wrong. But definitely check out different set ups and system, u will be surprised how a corner boundary loaded subwoofer sounds compared to nearfield. Test the same demo clip at multiple rooms, bring that home and play again… then decide which u prefer
Let’s catch up when u r back to sg, happy to host you to exchange knowledge, we will let the system do the talking. Don’t worry, I won’t blast away, I normally check with the user what is their comfortable listening levels. Having said that, it’s Probably not ideal for us to be discussing on bass topic here on the anthem thread.
Let’s catch up again when you are back
If you like the anthem sound, then we have one more kaki here ! Lol
The two smaller SVS subs in my living room are in the corner, but they are boomy. Might try them at different positions to test, but living room is full of hard surfaces and the subs might look ugly if they are not in the corner. That’s why I am looking forward to Dirac ART
Anyone tried or heard Dirac ART so far? Only Storm has it for now if im not wrong. Anthem did a good job in their UI, make me feel im using hybrid between Dirac and Audyssey app
the sound power for low frequencies is omnidirectional…
My room can never take that…sorry, I meant “I” will probably not able to take that kind of SPL level.
with multiple subs placement. It’s a terminology I like to use. I help you, u help me. When I integrate the system, I strive for this below. I don’t work by looking at the best frequency response at a given location. I work at looking at how one sub helps the other, and they are not fighting each other but helping each other at every single frequency.
