When I’m looking at all 7 pictures and video, LLDV with DTM on looks best to my eyes…
That is why I’m still keeping the hd fury for this reason… some movies with dolby vision, u will benefit with the video…
There is a number 149 on the right horse…
There is no orange horse I’m seeing, only brown horse !
There are the standards organizations and companies who defined HDR10 (4,000 nits) and Dolby Vision (10,000 nits) and then there are the studios who publish movies either streamed or on UHD Blu Ray to fit HDR10 and DV standards.
Some studios, like those to made Disney’s The Mandalorian, fit everything under 500 nits, but others created movie streams, such as The Meg, that go up to the full 4,000 nits of HDR10. Those 4,000 nit video streams will only display perfectly on very expensive studio monitors which are used to master movies that can handle 4,000 nits. Samsung TV’s are starting to pass 2,000 nits so soon retail TV’s will eventually be able to display HDR10 perfectly without tone mapping.
Projectors, however, will likely always have to compromise because we generally watch in darkened rooms and don’t want to be blinded by 4,000 nits. Accurate tone mapping has been elusive because HDR10 didn’t include luminance information and analyzing each 4K frame requires massive processing power, GPUs etc. HDR10+ and Dolby Vision streams have the luminance information and we are starting to see projectors with both standards. This will, hopefully, allow projectors to do perfect tone mapping. Video processing will become less important then.
Well said. For video processing, it’s a different story.
Bryan, the fact that you see more background detail in the LLDV+DTM horse scene doesn’t make it better. As you said earlier with shadow details, you may not be expected to see that amount of background detail. Between your frame 6 and 7, I think with LLDV+DTM the snow is less naturally white for a blizzard (having been in a few).
In photography, we have programs like Photoshop, Lightroom, DXO etc which have very powerful HDR processing that can really extend the dynamic range of photographs. If you run them too much, the photographs look “over processed”. That last horse scene may have elements of that. After all two dynamic tone maps were applied.
Anyway, its a matter of taste. I hope to sit with you one day to show you some movie clips where I think DTM has to be off. Will be very interested in your opinion.
Here is what I’m seeing on this particular clip DTM on
I think it’s ok. No issues with loss of shadow details
Below is DTM off
I totally agree with u, just that I prefer it with DTM on, don’t have to worry so much turning it on off so many times for different content. I just calibrate it for SDR, hdr , then use DTM with LLDV… I find it’s ok, I get a good balance with no loss of details and no clipping on contrast…
So I still find it better with LLDV combo DTM , I didn’t follow the expert advice of claw and Dominic who told u that you cannot do tone mapping twice. I for one, prefer the LLDV tone mapping at source combo with the DTM at the Sink, because I still think the roll off is important, especially on 4000 nits HDR10 content…
No worries mate, it’s good u brought it up, appreciate the effort. We never know until we try it… so now that I have tried and compared again, I will still settle down with DTM on …
Let’s catch up one day, maybe I can visit you instead , or if u can visit me, it will be sometime in September, still hosting some of our friends on AVM90
Could you show what you are seeing on that clip with DTM off
Ok updated above, mine is not as drastic as yours with DTM on off for dark scenes… I’m not sure how come yours has got such a big difference on the dark scenes when it’s on vs off…
I’m surprised too. Perhaps LG has updated the algorithm with my newer firmware. You are on the .15 firmware I think. I’m on the .37 firmware
This is why I posted the question in earlier posts…how can the difference be so drastic when both are of the same display and calibrated using the same Calman s/w. To account for such the difference, there must be setting(s) different from either one. For video calibration, I’m a stickler to standards but for DTM, I can’t say that is a standard as different display has their own way of doing compression at different nit levels (100 - 4000nits) and because of that, there is no one true way to say what you see is the standard.
What media player are both of you using to play these demo files?
For the movies, I’m using Disney+ on an Apple TV 4K. For the Spears and Munsil disc, I’m using a Panasonic UB820 UHD player
Sammy, how are u watching HDR10 content mastered in 4k nits ? Do u strip the metadata off and go SDR instead ? Or force Dolby Vision processing at source for HDR10? On the Oppo 205 we can do that… we can force on dolby processing at source for 1080p, HDR10 and native DV content ….
There are tons of movies with MaxMDL ( max master display Luminance) at 4,000 nits . We projectors owners, mostly suffer from HDR10 that has MaxMDL 4000. That is why the madvr is superior in this dept. 1,000 nits MaxMDL is still watchable. So even with DTM on for MaxMDL 4k, we suffer….that is where the hd fury comes in for me…
Here is the list
Ya I’m not sure why there is so much difference. On my display, with DTM on, I don’t get over bright image on dark scenes…it is only slightly brighter, but doesn’t look so bright to the extend it feels like the jungle is a street at night where u get lights shining on the entire street… that type of feeling is not there… it is still dark like how it should be in a jungle… and u still see the shadows, his eyes 
( just feels like adjusting the brightness control from 50 to 56… that’s about it only
But when it comes to bright scenes, boy that makes a huge difference… without DTM on, so much information goes missing…
I’ll take a few versions sample, we will how much info is lost during this process…
The content plays a part too, if the movie has a MaxMDL 4,000 nits, confirmed double triple chop u will suffer if do not turn on DTM, it’s just impossible not to apply the roll off for luminance… it just blows the whole video content out of proportion
One work round I think might work for Sammy’s case I think is to calibrate the Pj with iris opened at 5, then use medium min power saving. So when it comes to darker scenes like this, open the iris further to 7 to allow more light through and switch energy saving from medium to Low, this should help a bit with light and shadows…
I’m assuming both sdr/hdr are calibrated on your set too sammy using calman? 
During hdr/dv calibration using calman, was DTM turned off/on? Is there a peak luminance setting on this LG PJ that needs to be set to a certain setting during calibration?
Just wondering if calibration process could be a factor/cause for the difference.
I’m a calman home for LG user too but my display is an OLED TV. For LG OLED TVs, for HDR calibration, DTM shld be OFF and peak luminance set to HIGH, so there were instances that users left DTM on and wrong peak luminance setting and it affected the results.
Foodie, during Calman calibration, I followed Ronildoq’s excellent instructions to a T. DTM off, Game mode (with HDR HDMI video signal) and Iris set to 8. If I recall, I measured the peak luminance and set it properly during calibration. Was around 100 nits. With LLDV (100 nits DV string) and DTM off, I’m actually quite happy because I don’t have to fiddle with the settings anymore for different movies. The picture is 100% tone mapped by the Dolby Vision processor in the ATV4K or UB820. Everything comes out, more or less, to my taste. The only thing I adjust is the manual Iris for the brightness of the room.
Bryan, HDR10 content is a bit tricky, but most everything is now in Dolby Vision, except for Prime Video, which is in HDR10+ (my Panasonic OLED does that). I believe not all Dolby Vision is coded correctly. The movies I buy on the iTunes store are playable on the ATV4K either in Dolby Vision by using Apple’s Movies app or in HDR10 by using the Prime Video app since Amazon and Apple linked their movie stores. It’s useful to test the difference.
For HDR10: If its a dark movie throughout then I turn off DTM as everything is more vibrant. Secrets of Dumbledore (from Prime Video) comes to mind. If its a bright movie, which is like a lot of TV video, then I turn DTM on. If there is a wide mixture of very dark scenes and very bright scenes in HDR10, then I give up and set the ATV4K to SDR or the UB820 to SDR BT2020 mode. Fortunately, I can find most content in Dolby Vision so I don’t have to do this.
I tried forcing LLDV conversion on both the ATV4K and Firestick Max. It tone maps properly, but for some reason, I just don’t like the look, especially SDR to Dolby Vision. I’d rather convert HDR to SDR BT2020 or SDR 709.
Thanks for the movie list. I agree with you on LLDV. With the HDFury, all the high nit movies are watchable to me, even without DTM in Dolby Vision. I have a Blade Runner 2049 UHD somewhere. Your list puts it at 10,000 nits. I’ll try watching it on the LG with DTM on and off
Bryan,
My preferences might be a taste thing, but I don’t like dark video so I don’t find that DTM off + LLDV produces overly bright scenes. To me, its just about right and pretty close to SDR. There is also no question that DTM off + LLDV does tone down > 1,000 nit scenes a lot, but not to the extent of DTM on + LLDV. I would still argue that for my projector, DTM on + LLDV is too dark and while it shows more detail in bright parts of pictures, like sky clouds & sun, I would say that those are the less important parts of the picture compared to shadow detail.
I’ve disassembled my Calman rig, but if I’m going to try again, I’ll try the settings you just suggested. Originally, I was going to try some Calman custom curves following Tyler’s video, but after dialing in the HD Fury in with DTM off, I’m not going to bother.
Forgot to mention, but at night, I often run the Iris at 0 or 1, which gives me the maximum black level (DLP projector you know). So the extra brightness from DTM off is useful.
Had two Sony SXRD projectors before so I appreciate the difference in black levels hence like to keep the Iris down as much as possible. May upgrade to a Grey Screen at some point.
Just watched The Wrath of Man starring Jason Statham on the HU810. I had bought the movie on sale a few months ago on Amazon Prime Video in 4K HDR. Terrible in HDR even with DTM off. The first scene in the armored car, the inside of the car is jet black and the drivers are just black shadows moving around. Switched it to 4K SDR. The same scenes can see details of the drivers and dashboard. Later I tried the HDR stream on my OLED. Same thing as on the HU810. Can’t see a thing. So some HDR streams are just so badly coded that there is probably no display that can display it properly.
