*Official Thread* Anthem AVM 70 & 90 and MRX 540, 740 & 1140

Very clever ! This is the exact technique I used when calibrating Petetherock’s square room 4 years ago…

It’s the only possible way to get amplitude to sound “balanced” in his square room, because of the lack of acoustic treatment in the room.

Here is my take on the above approach:

The caveat here is this approach sacrifices “headroom” in exchange for a linear in room amplitude response, technically you are just calibrating for “Levels”

Most often it will be ok when used in small rooms, ie 3x4m rooms or 5x4 meter rooms and if someone doesn’t blast the system down to reference levels .( I do know some folks who tend to listen at reference levels in small rooms with acoustic treatment in place. ) In bigger HT rooms or 8x 10m rooms and with acoustic treatment in place, headroom counts towards this because of the distance of listener’s listening position from speakers. More levels/ amplitude is required in a bigger room.

Couple this with “Dialnorm” offsets on the dolby file, suddenly one will find themselves needing to increase the volume/ gain settings on the avr or processor

Finally, the approach applies lotsa correction filters to “cut away levels” so as to match that DIP in overall amplitude response. Depending on how much one decides to cut. Remember, too many correction filters often makes the sound worse off. This can be seen in time domain information but cannot be seen on the amplitude graph. This is one big reason audiophiles don’t like to use room correction, because of over equalisation. So one will need to be careful between getting the amplitude right and having over equalisation

In my personal experience, one should generally not apply more than 3 (cut) eq filters in the bass region. As you add on more filters, u start to hear the “EQ” sound. Some can hear this, some can’t . If one can’t hear this “eq” sound… that’s perfectly fine…

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how long is the Anthem local warranty? (AVM or MRX)

2 years local warranty.

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Had a chance past weekend Sunday to pay bro desray a visit. Intention was to check out the Lumagen Radiance with the NZ7, the MK subs was a bonus and of course cant miss giving it a listen since am already there.

As usual, i “absorbed” (the knowledge from desray) as much as i can as the explanation was ongoing, Lumagen indeed live up to its name for the fraction of MadVR after seeing the end result, and one thing we can all agree on is that the GUI will really frustrate you just by the look of it, not to mention going through the actual work of calibrating. If only the GUI can further improve and not causing much of a confusion, its really a great piece of device that i would want to own. Overall PQ is just wonderful and pleasant to the eyes.

As for the SQ, it is pretty remarkable i would say, since my last visit was the JL Audio subs, the MK provides more body and weight to the overall ambience IN HIS ROOM (as usual, bigger room requires more and/or bigger subs according to physics). I do experience the same feel in my room on the overall presences and pressure when i changed my 4 x 12" Stereo Integrity SQL customs to the 2 x DefTech DN15.

Putting myself in his preference (not ULF kind of guy), the MK gives enough “weight” to the mids, can feel it doesn’t really go down until 20hz but good enough for enjoyment, at least better than the last JL Audio, again in his room…

Surround was good and does not give a sense of presence of the speakers when listening with Neural X . Overall really great!

Thanks for hosting me on the last min request, i had an enjoyable 2.5hrs or fun :slight_smile:

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Time flies… I didn’t even realise its coming to 2.5hrs! :rofl:

well i reached 1pm and left at 330pm. so yeah time flies lol

Yes, Lumagen Radiance Pro UI is not for the faint of heart. It took me almost a year to figure out all the settings and how to do a proper calibration on my projectors. This is for hardcore enthusiast and custom installer only. I will never recommend to average consumer.

As I have mentioned, the founder, Jim Petersen is what we will call an engineer by profession…he is no “Steve Jobs” where type fonts and every curvature of the product exudes a kind of “personality”…just look at the nondescript and unassuming metallic casing with no OLED screen or any form of indicators etc. When you buy a Lumagen Radiance Pro, be prepared to go “old school”.

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Hello @Ronildoq , @desray,
I’ve been a long time reader in this forum but just joined for the 1st time to reply to this post because it describes an issue I have with very loud sweep tones in both the AVM 70 and the AVM 90. I’ve tried many changes but no definite solution, may be you have the final answer.

Your description is very similar to my case; I also have a “HT 7.2.2” profile and a “Stereo 2.2” Profile: Here are my ARC results:

  1. "HT 7.2.2" Profile: Calibration Level = 8db. System Wide Level Target = 65db.

  2. "Stereo 2.2" Profile: Calibration Level = 0db. System Wide Level Target = 75db

I’ve managed to tweak ARC but my Stereo 2.2 Profile plays way louder compared to my HT Profile. Why? I only use one set of Measurements, 5 X positions with varying heights as suggested by ARC manual. I adjust each of my 2 SVS SB200 subs to 71 or 72db for a total of 75 avg. Sub 1 is in front left corner, inverted polarity; Sub 2 in rear right corner. Had to do that to eliminate a nasty null at MLP. Bass is deep, cohesive, punchy, fast. I just don’t understand why ARC assigns such a low Target Level for my HT Profile compared to y Stereo Profile.

Thanks, great quality advice here my the moderator and others.

Can I just verify that you are using only 1 set of measurement for 2 profiles? If so, this cannot be the case that the target reference level is different for the 2 profiles. Unless you have 2 measurements for movie and music.

I appears you are using 2 sets of measurements, which you dont need to. You only need to do one set of calibration and save it as multiple profiles. In your case above, i would stick to Calibration level = 8 db with system wide target = 65db

Before you do that, go to the main page and set all levels to -6db, including the LFE channel. You would want to have a negative trim setting on your subwoofers output

The system wide target level is a target you can set. Ideally, for the best results, measurements should be taken at 40dbA above room noise floor for excellent results, 25-39db is generally good. so if your room is noisy and the room ambient noise floor is 45dbA, then you would want to go with the System wide level target = 75db. If your room is quiet, ie at 25dbA noise floor, then go with the 65db system wide level target. (65-25 = 40db<-- sufficient SNR)

For suwoofers, it is perfectly fine with 2 subs combined output producing 75db levels.

there is a lot more to that, its a process called gain structure optimisation. using different speakers with different sensitivity, different amplifiers,different types of connection, ie Balanced connection for mains LCR vs unbalanced connection for surrounds/atmos speakers… all these play a role in how you optimise the gain structure on your system

technically its very important to make sure your subwoofer channel output has enough headroom to prevent clipping in the digital domain. The reason here is there is a concern that you have 7+6 bed speakers and atmos speakers sending re-directed bass to the subwoofer input + with the LFE having a +10 playback levels @ 115db, its going to clip the signal if you push the volume louder, causing distortion and clipping in the subwoofer channel. A positive trim settings on the subwoofer is not ideal. Having a negative trim in the subwoofer channel will give your processor more headroom having had to handle re-directed bass from all the speakers + it also helps more headroom in the input stage of the subwoofer amp. My recommendations would be to increase the gain levels at the subwoofer amp, it will not hurt to use more power from the subwoofer amplifier. One downside to this will be that it lowers the signal to noise ratio, but its hardly audible in the low frequencies. So a lot more benefits raising the levels on the subwoofer amplifier and reducing the gain in the processor.

do this if possible… its part of the gain structure optimisation for HT set up

i generally leave my subwoofer dial at 3 oclock… thats how i do it … but it depends on individual subs and how you optimise them…

one will need to measure to know what to do to fully optimise the system…

Wow…3 o’clock position? That’s 75% of the gain knob on your subwoofer?

I noticed that too but was wondering if it was the other way around at 25%. Audyssey wants me to set mine at 10% for calibration, but after calibration, I bump it up to 30%

yea, this is much better.

The LFE channel is recorded with a level offset of −10 dB. This offset is compensated for in the reproduction system (processor/AVR), where the LFE loudspeaker has an acoustic output (within its low frequency passband) of +10 dB with respect to the other channels.

As noted in the quote above, the LFE channel is recorded 10 dB lower than the speaker channels. On replay, a signal in the LFE track must therefore produce 10 dB more acoustic output than the same signal in one of the speaker tracks. If we were to assume that the monitoring system (amplifiers, speakers, and subwoofer) were initially calibrated so that the same electrical input signal delivered the same acoustic output from all channels, then the channel that plays the LFE content (i.e. the subwoofer channel) must have 10 dB of electrical gain added to it, somewhere between the bitstream decoder and the subwoofer driver.

this +10 db gain is what is referred to as the “LFE Alignment gain”. Bluray players like oppo, or other analog bluray panasonic 7.1 players, dont have this +10db LFE Alignment gain. They will need to add this manually in the trim settings or subwoofer amp.

The AVM90/AVR all have this +10db gain internal trim settings turned on. So when we measure just the LFE channel on the processor, it will be +10db louder than the other speaker channels.

If bass management is engaged, lets say all 7 bed speakers + 6 atmos speakers uses a 100hz Crossover, this re-directed bass is performed digitally in the subwoofer channel. So that subwoofer channel, is now handling 115db which is already the full digital scale + 13db (re-directed bass) from the 13 speakers. So adding bass from another 13 channels, even reduced by 10db, could exceed the maximum digital signal level. So far i found that a -10db headroom here is adequate. We dont often have all 13 channels sending re-directed bass the same time. a lot of times it is about 5db max.

Plus dont forget, most like to boost their bass post EQ, otherwise it sounds too flat.

So imagine, if one chooses to boost +10db post eq for their subs. if they playback at -10mv, this means their LFE signal alone, is using the full 115db digital scale.if they push the Master volume higher than -10, ie -5mv, then they run the risk of clipping the signal in the digital domain. Because we have to cater for re-directed bass from the speakers also, all going in to that subwoofer channel on the processor.

I learnt about this many years ago, when i was using an outboard eq called “Antimode 2.0”

In terminator genisys bridge scene, you will observe this issue if the digital signal clips. (was clipping heavily at Jag’s place @ MV-10) turns out he applied +16db boost on the subwoofer channel.

So i always caution the folks, if you play loud and boost the subwoofer channel, you will need to be careful here. Because we dont want the clipping/distortion in the subwoofer channel.

The solution to the above, is to use more amplifier power from the subwoofer, ie 75-90%

Oh yes, i think i must mention this is approach is ideal for HT because for music there is no LFE… unless its those bluray concert special DTS Music 5.1…

For music, its the reverse, since we do not have this LFE and worry about clipping signal in the digital domain, we should approach it differently by maximising the signal to noise ratio instead…

which thing audyssey wants you to set at 10% ? You mean the subwoofer levels ?

when you bump up the levels, there are 3 places you can do this, you can

  1. increase the Levels in the AVR/Processor
  2. Increase the levels on the subwoofer amplifier
  3. Increase the levels in the outboard EQ (if you have any)
    a) can be increased in the digital domain of the outboard eq
    b) can be increased in the analog domain of the outboard eq

the key here is to know where we should apply the increase , pre and post room correction…

It’s all too “cheem” for me… Frankly, for Anthem users out there, you just need to make sure before ARC calibration, use the Quick Measure tool to find the appropriate output level. For 1 subwoofer, you can stick to 75dB but make sure the highest peak doesn’t exceed 80dB. If it does, lower the sub gain knob to the point where the highest peak is below 80dB. For dual subs, just make sure the reading is about 71dB for each sub while also making sure the highest peak does not exceed 80dB. Adjust the physical phase knob on each sub to get the loudest output while still retaining the smoothest response possible. Once done, proceed with ARC calibration.

Once calibration complete, do auto phase to time align.

Play with Room Gain and Deep bass boost.

That’s all to it in my case.

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this is a good scene to test digital clipping

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dMeP3s9TUzPRtZBRUleB2Sohil2pEHVS/view?usp=drive_link

at about 2mins 10 sec, the bus will flip… if the signal clips in the digital domain, you can hear this distortion very clearly like cracking sound it will not sound as smooth… you might get confused with this sound and the special effects sound from the movie…

I discovered this only when i saw the red light flashing on antimode 2.0 (outboard eq device)… that made me dig further to investigate…

One can also monitor the channel meters on minidsp 2x4 hd if you have one connected in the chain. But do note the 2x4hd unbalanced is 2v rms

to simplify

  • speakers max 105db reference
  • LFE max 115db reference. ← this channel is already handling +10db more compared to speakers channel, left or right… they are all at 105db
  • Plus now you have re-directed bass to subwoofer channel. So imagine, your subwoofer channel now needs to handle 120db of gain. +15db more than the speaker channel.

think of it this way, since i have put so much burden on the sub channel letting it handle +10db more and on top of that re-directed bass, i should try my best to reduce its burden that means reducing the levels going into that channel.

That keeps the AVR sub signal clean and allows upward adjustability to run the sub hotter if needed

does it sound less complicated when explained that way ?

Can I just verify that you are using only 1 set of measurement for 2 profiles? If so, this cannot be the case that the target reference level is different for the 2 profiles. Unless you have 2 measurements for movie and music.

@desray @Ronildoq

I can confirm 100% the results are with just one set of measurements (all 7.2.2 speakers). My 2 Profiles use the same measurement.

Test tones are loud and I am very surprised it assigns different Target Levels (65db for HT 7.2.2, 75db for Stereo 2.2) for each Profile.

These 2 issues happen on both AVM 70m 8K and AVM 90. I have a dedicated listening room. Room is very quiet (12 x 18 ft).

Any ideas?
Thanks.

Thanks.