Odd Shape HT build

Ronildoq · 5 April 2021 06:01

Hey bro, I think we have the same taste. Personally I love the ribbons from the GX300.

I don’t play those Metallica or concert stuff etc. So the speakers really suit my taste and there is no sense of fatigue from long hours listening to them

It’s a lot easier to explain when u pop by because i have the same set of speakers and all the measurements data on the laptop

Nice u get to use the same speakers for surrounds. I can’t find any GX300 for surrounds, they are no longer available . Coherence is important and having all 5 same will help for sure

Yes let’s catch up offline. Once u have decided with the layout, I can help you out with the measurements and acoustics

It will be easier when u pop by, listen to the variances, then make a calculated decision on your next step. Then if it works and u like what u r hearing, u just follow up and execute

I believe u will be one happy man at the end of the day.

petetherock · 5 April 2021 09:19

Partly teasing him but I don’t think those MA will be there when the dust settles
I’ll say when all the equipment comes in and it’s the final setup then he measures

rayleh · 5 April 2021 11:23

I watched the Anthony Grimani video with Gene. The idea of hiding acoustic panels behind pulled fabric wall is fabulous. If aesthetic is a concern, doing the room treatment before setting up the equipment may be a good idea.

Just like Ron, hiding all the acoustic panels and speaker behind the AT screen

Ronildoq · 6 April 2021 08:14

Great advice by Gavin, I think the reverse is good, with a 160 inch screen. u need the width for the surrounds, they can be very very immersive when dialed in with subwoofers to have that physchoacoustic bass steering effect when used with a lyngdorf processor

If you can have the subs at the areas marked in green or red, they should be good. (Green preferred) Or if possible on all 4 locations. Or stacked at green locations

Having the odd shape room is not really bad, there is very less chance of bass cancellation. Do note that the pressure zones behind MLP is the focus, but at this room length, it will be manageable. 2x 15” subs looks insufficient though, but it’s a good start , depending on how bass crazy u r.

hillviewer · 6 April 2021 09:09

I have 2 units of Rythmik E15hp. Can add 2 more if required.

After the room acoustic is done, next will be the projector as the current JVC X7900 will be move to MBR.
Was thinking of JVC N7 and Gavin educated me on nits and fL. For good HDR, ideally will be 40fL. N7 is only 24 fL at 160". So need to allocate money for a higher end projector. Wrote to SIM2 and they are hooking me up with a local dealer.

After the projector, then I look at the pre-pro and then the amp. now I am using X6300, parasound for left and right, rotel for center and 4 surrond and emotiva for ATMOS.

Was reading a few articles comparing Lyndorf and Trinnov. read until headache hahaaa.

Ronildoq · 6 April 2021 13:54

If you haven’t yet gotten the subs, I would suggest you go for the JTR RS2, 18” subs, to provide the extension down Low frequencies.

These subs should fill in the room with adequate energy and still have ample headroom

Again if you run the speakers in full range, you will not be able to enjoy details down the lower octave…

Say for example if the subs that you use is a 12” subs and they are only good down to 30hz, adding a sub here doesn’t really give u the full benefits. Because the speakers are already able to run down to 30-40hz range. However, when you go 18”, they can provide the extension down to single digits, at least if it was the JTR subs. So you will want to use a subwoofer, that will provide something that the speakers will find hand to reproduce. This is where again, running the speakers full range is never a benefit.

Even if u run it large, they now handle the same range of frequencies, and instead of complementing each other, they are now fighting to re-produce the same frequencies. When that happens, again you have to start dealing with frequencies cancellation problems that could have been avoided in the first place

What we are trying to improve in the set up, is resolution and details. Details that the speakers are not able to reproduce without any form of distortion . This is where a subwoofer with good extension down lower frequencies, comes into play to supplement the entire set up

The moment you push the speakers, playing uncompressed audio etc, the speakers start to stress, what follows is loss of headroom, what follows after that is distortion

A lot more to follow, stay tuned… I’ll advise along the Way, including your room layout, and what all these means… as easy as possible to understand

As for processor, both the lyngdorf and trinnov are very good processor. If you need my honest opinion, my personal take is this

The DAC and the Object placement (processing of Atmos Signal) is superior to many processors out there . However, you will a professional calibrator and they are not cheap

The Lyngdorf is superior when it comes to bass management. The room perfect is simple to use as the system time aligns every single speaker to every single subs. Auro Calibration times can run for more than 2hours . Object placement and DAC is not as good compared to the trinnov. I can guide you woth lyngdorf as I own one, without having to pay a hefty calibrator fee

Ronildoq · 7 April 2021 01:05

Continuing with placement of the subwoofers. When you place it at the corners, the subs placement should go like this pic below , leaving an air gap behind

Not this way like the one below

Very important is to isolate the subs from the ground, lifting it, so it doesn’t introduce any unwanted distortion by transmitting energy through the floor.

One of the best methods I have found , and that I’m using now , is to use a 6mm cork and sorbothane in combination under a 4cm granite base that will provide the mass. And then when you can, get your carpenter to build something like this with an air gap, sturdy.

This will work as a pressure plate absorbing Low frequencies pressure moving downwards

Then place your subwoofers on top of this removing the original footers

Following up with that, get steel shots of 25kg each, and place it at the top cabinet of the subwoofer

You will then have a good head start now, the energy moving through air is so much more controlled in the lateral direction and what follows is extremely fast transient attack and decay times with very Low distortion .

You now have a decent isolation that when played loud, will not disturb your neighbours downstairs. A lot of benefits if u ask me.

No disturbances downstairs even at loud volume -5mv
Fast attack and decay times
Good timing response
Controlled cabinet resonances
Articulated bass

With this approach, you are heading in the correct direction. Whilst I agree there are many ways, by SLE or TPE or BKE… this methodology is proven and at least verified.

What I find important is that you need to follow the right source/ people/ studios/ room when building your theatre room . When I visited the dolby studio back then, my intention wasnt really to go and enjoy and listen to how good the room sounded. They had tons of speakers like 15 to 20 speakers playing. That won’t apply in our homes. More speakers just means more problems to deal with. My main purpose was to observe “ why they do it that way”

As mentioned, there are so many ways, but why didn’t he take SLE? He took BKE instead.

I shared that in XP forum some years ago, the reason it sounded so good was because the studio had very good room criterion. The noise was extremely Low and the dynamic range was good. Somehow I got into some argument with another member called badenglish, who just doesn’t understand or agree to the benefits of why we need to have a room with Low noise

So that was one part of the journey that I followed. And this is also what I think you can try and follow. That is why I need to host u, after u listen to the set up and u like every bit of it, u just need to follow closely what I have done. You will get there …

rayleh · 7 April 2021 01:23

Low floor noise is indeed important to me. Can hear more details even at a lower volume. (Bro, no 5mv for me at home)

Ronildoq · 7 April 2021 04:52

Lol, yes yes. Actually don’t need to play so loud. -15mv can be very enjoyable.

Of course the young chaps & bass heads love it at -5mv lol, clean fast impactful

Low noise floor is really beneficial, it increases the dynamic range

I like to follow what’s on the internet, but I don’t follow blindly. I follow only what makes sense and works for me. So that is important. When we see the benefits, if it’s possible, we need to execute. Then We can reap the rewards

Just look at how thick and solid the acoustic door

hillviewer · 7 April 2021 05:43

Yeah make a lot of sense. I open to moving the E15HP to another purpose or sell it to get 4 JTR RS2, 18".

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/E15_specs.html

Unlikely to find time to learn, and even learn might not understand Trinnov. Lyngdorf is more for people like me and I can follow what you do.

hillviewer · 7 April 2021 05:50

Drawing updated with Sub facing.

The Sub stand is just nice for my carpentry hobby. look like MDF?

You means a bag of steel shots of 25kg?

hillviewer · 7 April 2021 06:04

Can put at the left side of right speaker? blue square
or put at red square?
I am going to build a rack to hold equipments and the 160" screen. I going to put the LCR in the middle height of the screen. So the LR is abut 1.2m from floor. Put the sub below the R?

rayleh · 7 April 2021 07:00

If I have a dedicated HT room, I won’t dedicate where to put subs until I understand the room modes and find out the optimal positions to put them.

rayleh · 7 April 2021 07:01

Solid and expensive.

hillviewer · 7 April 2021 12:20

Unfortunately, it is not a dedicated HT room. It is more of a entertainment room. Should have make the title more correct.

nieces and nephews will be watching disney and monkey around on weekend.
Relatives and friends coming over for Karaoke night ( 2 QSC K8.2, 1 QSC sub, XAir and popical and lots of mic hahaa).

Eventually, I will squeeze in the golf simulation as well.

So even at some compromise of SQ, I have to put all 4 Sub at 4 corners and obtain the best from there as much as possible.

Even the Gold 100 might not get final approval to stand along for surround.

Surround most likely have to be on wall for safety reasons.

hillviewer · 7 April 2021 12:23

Gavin,

Does acoustic diffusor around a speaker count as a wall?
Thinking about surround. If I cut a hole on the wall, rain water will come in liao.hahaaa

Wechnivag · 7 April 2021 12:53

short answer i think is no…

Surrounds you can mount ON wall.

Ronildoq · 7 April 2021 12:56

yes looks good. Dont worry so much, just cater for the JTR RS2 at 4 units corner in this diagram here.

Your understanding is spot on, perfect! get the equipment from USA, the shipping can be expensive now. Shipping have really gone up tremendously. Leave the integration to me. Ill do it for you. If you go the Lyngdorf path. Ive been there, seen it , done it. Just need to follow exactly how i tell you to do it.

The attach pic is a sample i have sketched. i will explain along the way, until we meet in person, then i can break it down in details for you in layman terms.

Just so you are following, the sample above shows a room that is 10m long and 3.8m wide, just a sample. For sake of understanding.

MA is your Monitor audio, MLP is where you sit. Assuming you only have 1 right speaker in the room and you are sitting dead centre, for example, then lines in blue, is the first reflection point.

The first order reflections / early reflections, will bounce off the front wall, side wall on the left, on the right and behind the MLP, then they will combine with the direct sound from the speaker, to give you the Speakers Power Response.

Why is the Lyngdorf good? Its because the Room EQ software looks at the power response (the total on off axis response from the speakers) and not just amplitude response ( the speakers direct sound to MLP)

Now if you dont weaken the spots of the first reflections, it can be detrimental to sound quality. Because what follows is, the 2nd order reflections. That means it bounces off that surface to another surface and what follows is masking out of details. Speech intelligibility suffers as a results of these reflections.

The blue line shown above, is called Sound Velocity. When it hits the area circled in yellow, we have Sound Pressure build up. They are two different things. The area where sound velocity is high, the sound pressure will be low. And where sound pressure is high, sound velocity is low.

Notice that behind MLP, we always have our first reflection points. This is why i always advocate the use of absorption at these locations. Not diffusion.

Imagine a snooker ball, when you hit it with a the stick, the ball moves fast. Thats velocity there. But when it hits the other 9 balls, the pressure builds up and transfers to the rest of the ball causing it to disperse. Thats pressure. Same thing like sound.

So with Sound velocity areas, we want to have Rockwoll or Mineral wool to slow the energy. With Sound pressure areas, we want to make sure the pressure is absorbed. Each of these, we need to treat this differently.

More to follow… heading out now

petetherock · 7 April 2021 12:57

The FX speakers mount flush onto the walls. And they are pretty flexi about their positions…

Ronildoq · 7 April 2021 13:48

ok here now see what happens when you put the left speakers into the room

Depending on how you place the MA speakers and MLP, the first early reflection point changes. but notice it is always at the 4 corners, left right front back. Also noticed that whether or not if it is the left or right speakers, they both benefit with a velocity absorption panel behind MLP, ie the yellow circle on your right in this picture.

but since i cant do 3d modelling, i cant show u what happens to ceiling floor reflections

what the above means is that, the first reflections are arriving 1.5ms later after the direct sound. Now if we dont weaken/absorb or scatter this reflection into tiny bits, our brains will interprete this as a second source of sound

now see again below what happens when you dont kill off the first reflections points and you have the 2nd reflections to deal with

pretty scary all over the place, the sound is bouncing off all the walls, no control. So its very important we kill off the first reflection points. Ill teach you how to solve it when we meet up. so i can show you what is happening at my place

How to know by measurements if the reflections are kills off? We can use REW ETC plot to tell. That way we will know we have effectively killed off the nasty reflections.

But notice one thing, the more surface area you cover to kill off sound velocity, the more effective it becomes. Because as it bounces around in the room, it is bound to come across one of the rockwool panels hanging in lateral positions around the room, that way the energy dies down eventually.

This is why it is important that the effective absorption area/abroption panels, are placed 60cm from ground.

Also notice one thing in common, the back wall centre location, is where it always hits. Notice that it doesnt really hit the corners of the room ?

So when i look at it, you can place some nice panels there. If your room door is there, then you may have some headache. because its gonna be difficult to treat that area. So the door at the right, is not a bad thing afterall.

Overall i think your room will be ok.