Bass, tactile feedback, that feeling!

For chest thump, are we talking about about the kind of thumping you get at a club?

It is primarily a SPL dependant effect. Need to reach a certain sound pressure to resonate the chest cavity, or lower down in the abdomen etc.

In clubs, concert venues, the space is much larger and the bass sound waves are much cleaner, not so much room affected peaks and dips, phase changes.

In our home setup, spaces are much smaller. Asymmetrically rooms and sub placements, modal behavior all contribute to to the unpredictability.

This is one of the reason in my mind, to use a bass array as much as possible. A plane wavefront launched from the front wall, down the length of the room.

Imo this gives the cleanest impulse wavefront, and the highest chance of playback per directors intent.

Coming back to the club subwoofers, they usually have their efficiency peaks in the 50-60hz range, which is very close to our chest cavity resonant frequencies.

This is another reason why near field subs are so tactile, similarly ported subs (they move more air) are much more tactile than sealed subs. Near field receives much higher direct sound vs room sound, so there are less dips and phase issues. . And it has to be quite near. ~within driver diameter, to be reliably near field.

With the strong clean impulse wavefront, the sofa, unfortunately, definitely intercepts the bass wave and resonates sympathetically. How the sofa moves, depends on its transparency to sound (leather more tactile than fabric), as well as the sofa structure natural resonant modes AND damping. Think of that human body resonant frequency, chart, but for the sofa. The back, the seat, the armrest, the entire sofa, all have different modes, and different damping. The person sitting on the sofa then also changes the combined system resonant frequency.

Too little mechanical damping in the sofa structure, will result in longer decay, and the impression of tactile smearing in the bass.

For multi sub setup, one way to investigate is to measure the individual subs at MLP, and then note their response peaks and dips. Then listen to known tracks for chest thump, with individual subs only, not combined.

It will be interesting to note, if there are any directionality of the bass impulse, as well as relative magnitude of chest thump for each individual sub -does it corelate with having a good response or dip at the thump frequency range.

Because the content may may be a broad band impulse say 30-60hz whack. If a sub has dip at 40hz, it will sound and feel different compared to a sub with dip at 50, or 30, or 60. And I still feel there is some placement and directionality effect. Meaning 2 subs may measure quite similar at different location, but their tactile thump feel is different.

One example of bass impulse wavefront directionality, is on live by night, after they talk about the tunnels. The first gunshot from the tunnel ambush comes from the front left speaker. I think I can feel that impulse from my front left speaker, currently crossed 60hz.

Another example, ready player one race scene. Right at the end towards finish line, when king kong is rushing ahead to intercept… It felt like there were bass thumps from his foot steps coming from left side, and right side, depending on the camera angle as it rotates. I just noticed this at the most recent demo, have yet to re-check it… This is much lower though, 20-30hz, not exactly chest thump…

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Perhaps the BMI of the listener has an impact. Chest thump might be a good incentive to lose or gain weight :smile: Do women feel chest thump the same as men? Might have to do with chest size :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

I imagine chest thump has also to do with room size. I recall that more than 20 years ago, I listened to Jag’s two wall mounted SVS cylinders in a normal room and it was my first experience of serious pressurization. Later on I tried it in my condo living room, which was at least 4x the size with four subs and nada. No pressurization at all. Looks like I may have needed at least four or more Seatons :rofl:

Dangerous! This scene is quite poisonous, if u asked the lady to demo this chest thump scene , not sure how tactile it’s gonna be as the bass is going to slam left right left… :grimacing::grimacing: the ladies might get the “ bouncy “ tactile bass :rofl:

The strange thing I noticed is that on the contrary, the nearfield sub placement didn’t quite slam the chest, it shaked the sofa more . The ones that had the slam to chest all had subs facing forward equidistant at left and right in the fromt. It’s definitely not the SPLs or house curve, as the system was a simple dual 12” Dali subs that was doing 100db in SPLs from 27-60hz without any house curve. And it was also in the living room ! The punches were taking place at the chest level !! When that happened, the guest was touching his chest, and he went, ah this is nice….

It is very strange because earlier we had another 12” subs pair at the back, nearfield. The summation of response was nicer on the graph but It took away the speed and attack that was otherwise obvious with only 2 in front corners. In the end we shifted the subs that was at the back and stacked it in front. When that happened, we were no longer taking advantage of a smoother response, the guest “preferred” the tactile feeling , he didn’t mind sacrificing the smoother response in exchange for that prominent slam on the chest tactile feeling… (the back subs supplemented in the area from 70-110hz) .

In the end, the subs that were stacked in front was used not to smoothen the response further to 110hz, but was used to provide more SPLs at 1/2 the volume… the front pair had a good response from 25-70hz then it starts to come down

So normally we dial in the subwoofers first before we proceed with any audyssey eq. And before we even proceed with any audyssey , we test the scenes to find out how is the performance of the dual subs or multi subs , once the guest is happy with what he is hearing on the bass, then we proceed to dial in the rest …

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You did well to get chest thump out of the 12 inch Dali subwoofers. A friend has the 12 inch one with a small built-in base plate and the port on the bottom. It’s quite musical with his Dali speakers, but quite weak for HT even turned up all the way. If they are these, then stacking four of them in front of the MLP does make sense. Probably need 6 Dali to equal one of your Seatons :wink: I know that some people have improved output on these stacked bottom firing subs by removing the bass plate and pointing the port at the listener.

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This is very interesting. Knowing your work, the back subs are all perfectly time /impulse aligned with the front subs. But still, it took away the speed and attack of the front sub alone.

Got a few thoughts, need some additional details to understand this.

  • can you share the response differences between back + front subs, and front subs alone? Personally, I have also preferred more direct tactile response and will sacrifice some response dips for this. But it’s a question of how much difference in the response.

  • the back subs could potentially have more low bass impact, say 30-40hz range, and this will change the feel of the thump from just 40-60hz front subs impact alone?
    I have seen people high pass their subs /bass at 40hz to get a ‘faster’ sounding impact.

  • is there a back wall supporting the back subs? Are they near to sofa, more near field, or are they near to back wall boundary, 1-2m away?

Coincidentally, saw this this post that is a unique take on the tactile sofa. It is quite different from the BOSS system, as it makes use of the air pressure wave from the driver.

A sub enclosure is built around the bottom of the sofa. The key difference is that all the bass pressure output of the driver has to exit ‘through’ the seat and back of the sofa…

The sealed subs fire upwards into the cavity below sofa.

Same here. Tactile is critical to my HT experience. No tactile, not syok at all.

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Should try the sofa mod above!

I will definitely be slaughtered! Cannot, must keep wife happy. :rofl:

She already raised eyebrows when i attached my shaker underneath. But as I never change the aesthetics, it passed.

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My Class D Subwoofer amplifier from China arrived and I swapped out the stereo amp driving the Buttkicker with it. Its one of these TPA3255 amps and is rated at 150W, but puts out 105-120W in tests into 4 Ohms. Too much. I bottomed out the Buttkicker at half volume. So actually, a low powered amp of around 60-100W is more than enough. I suppose now I could get another few Buttkickers and run them in parallel off the same amp. The amp has a lpf and I set it at the minimum of 20Hz. Didn’t seem to make a noticeable difference from the 40Hz lpf I set on the Denon originally

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Nice! Can you share which tpa3255 sub amp are you using?

Since this is a topic about tactile bass, let’s share our most updated go to tracks for testing bass response.

In my new room, I have a new favorite test track in the ready player one race scene. The low bass hits really hard with rumbles in the 20 - 30hz range. In my room, the sofa just moves endlessly from the bass, perhaps too much… I’m not sure what can be done except to change or reinforce, weigh down the sofa etc…

In term of midbass attack and texture, another old but gold with 13 hrs 1st wave and 2nd wave. All the different guns used have a different sound signature and character, and they really shine through. Again my sofa will pulse in unison with the rapid fire machine guns.

Really get to appreciate these 2 scenes in anew.

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I’ll share the measurements when I get home… with subs pair in front + back , vs sub pairs stacked only in front… tactile feeling is totally different! Response looked nicer with subs at the back, but feeling was totally different…

Only 2 dali subs in front was already able to produce the chest slam. That’s taken away when 2 more 12” added to the back. The back subs wasn’t good down low, it was better fr 70-110hz

There is no back wall supporting the back subs, but the subs were placed closer to the MLP, compared to the front subs that were further away from MLP

See this one from Aaron, it looks like the chest slam is also not happening on his set up, and he is looking to solve it… one old post … he seems to be guessing it could be due to house curve

I think Aaron knows what is missing on his set up, like what he is expressing, he can feel it just that his chest area is not getting slammed , lotsa bass in the room but not at the chest slam

The above :point_up: is exactly what I’m talking about when I started the thread…

Hi Gavin, you may want to try
Ford vs Ferrari final race scene,
Marevick the opening and DarkStar Scene
Creed III the final training Session
Your setup will be able to demo these scenes very well. :+1:

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The Fosi Audio M03. Alternative was the Ayima A3001, which is very similar. If you don’t need the lpf, which I did, then a possibly better mono amp is the Fosi Audio V3. As this was to drive a bass shaker rather than a real sub, the main consideration was buying from the manufacturer and getting a warranty, rather than sound quality, which I’m sure isn’t too shabby for all the TPA3255 amps. I also have an Ayima A07. It’s quite good.

I revisited the Ready Player One with the Buttkicker. Good exercise for it as the Buttkicker was pounding away throughout most of the scene and more intensely than most bass scenes. I had the lpf set at 20Hz as per @Foodie recommendation so I presume there is a huge amount of infrasonic bass in this scene. Now I feel like stuffing another port and putting my sub to its 16Hz tuning (from 20Hz) and trying that scene again to see what its like. I also like the Ready Player One race scene, because the other channels are relatively quiet and you can really hear the bass.

One short bass scene I like is in the beginning of Alita, where she jumps under a Centurion robot to save the dog.

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The last part when the kong grab the bike(thumpmmmm)… the thumping bass a lot setup miss that thumping tactile feel… most setup only get a tap sound.

My guessing Gavin, NGSK and Jason Yeo setup should be able to do that…

Creed is interesting, I’ve never seen any of the movies before! Got to check them out!

I was still looking around and came across this on AVS forum , this is quite interesting I thought it’s worth a share

As you would abserve above, bassthathz guy had the same experience, he got it with only 70db SPLs

I believe it could be a combination of several things as well

Then we see volt2amp, he mentioned that he achieved it with just 2x12” subs, the same experience I had with that Dali set up…

See how he explains it, it’s a similar tactile thing that he is after, similar to Aaron above, they are not after more subs , more SPLs , more infrasonics or how big the subs etc etc, they only want a simple thing, “chest slam”

This is very addictive for many, because not only it tracks better with on screen action, it slams the body at different heights & gives one that layered feel when watching movies or listening to songs . Doesn’t matter how much u boost, it just either exist or don’t…

I started to wonder if it could be due to the velocity instead of pressure? Are we looking at the wrong direction? Because unlike pressure that you feel at your ear drums at higher SPLs , velocity is wave coming straight at you, so ideally we want to be looking at velocity ? And not pressure ?

Also came across this below :point_down:, interesting subwoofer that claims to have superb ultra fast transients , anyone heard of these ?

It’s called “high velocity subwoofers”

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